A talk about the state of the world for girls and women, growing up in a patriarchy, messages we absorb from the water we’re swimming in, male violence, assault, misogyny, sexual harassment, the male gaze, objectification, sexism - and the frustration of having to hurry and say “not all men” because of course not all men.
Many of us agree with what you say and will stand with and by you 100% to fight against this behavior. No one should feel demeaned or threatened or exploited - tell us how you would change the story and stop the attitude that so many have. Explain what parents can do to teach girls and boys to act differently, and how to stop the most egregious lies being told by our politicians that warp the very fabric of our lives. What would you do about the religious zealots who do not allow discussions about birth control or gender roles...
These are great questions, John, and I do agree with Holle that they're also good questions to ask the men in your life. I wonder what men think about the Gisèle Pelicot case, for example. 72 men in the local area were happy to rape an unconscious woman while her husband filmed them. I can't wrap my head around that and I can't even hold onto the thought for too long because I start to panic. I feel men might talk to one another differently about that, but I don't know if that's true.
I am a big believer that mothers should be talking to their kids about sex, too, (at an age-appropriate time) whatever their genders. In my circle I have a lot of progressive, insightful, incredibly smart women who feel uncomfortable talking to their sons about sex, for example. I have been very open with my son, not that it's always been comfortable, but I felt it was really important that I, as a women, to talk to him about consent, about never having sex with anyone who is not sober even if they want to, about porn not being the place to look to figure out what girls and women need or want...I mean, I just laid it all out there and it's been great because the lines of communication have always been open. I've been the same way with my daughter, of course, but it seems like a lot of the moms in my circle leave the sex talk with their sons to their dads, and I think both perspectives are really important. This is not me trying to make more work for women, or laying the problem at our feet, this is just one piece of a large puzzle that seems to be missing, at least in this anecdotal way I'm describing. But all of this requires openness generally, and a willingness of parents to examine their own biases and fears. My heart breaks for kids who are queer growing up in a family that teaches homosexuality is a sin. I mean, we could dig in here for a long time, but my basic premise is openness, acceptance, communication and love, always. I know not every household is made that way.
I also think what happens in the home is huge, that chores should be evenly spread amongst the kids and should not have anything to do with gender. Certainly the most powerful stuff is always what we're doing, not what we're saying, so if there are two parents in the house, regardless of gender, is the relationship healthy, is there mutual respect and good communication? I also think honesty is everything. Making mistakes is fine, but knowing how to give a heartfelt apology is a skill so many adults don't possess. It's so good to work on that and model it. Anyway, I could go on for hours I think.
Religious leaders who won't talk about gender or sexuality...I dunno. That's not something I think we're going to fix, unless by fix we're talking about not attending their services. I would not follow anyone who preached intolerance, but that's me. And politicians, I mean we really will be here for days and weeks. We need to get money out of politics and we need to get rid of the electoral college. And we need a million other things. Anyway, that's a jumble of thoughts for you! Thanks so much for your comments and questions and I look forward to hearing what your thoughts are!
We, adults, have abdicated responsibility willingly because we are offered the easy choices. We give away parental authority to schools, churches and politicians because we believe they know better than we do. We teach our girls to become 'princesses' and our boys to become 'cavemen' because we believe that is what society and patriarchy demand...and every bit of this is wrong.
We teach intolerance because our 40,000 year old brain is stuck in an US vs.THEM cycle and the proof is not just black/white or women/men it manifests in the Middle East where Israelis and Palestinians are and have (in essence) the same genetic makeup and in Ireland where Protestant/Catholic can not be distinguished.
Learning starts in the home - with both parents being present and accountable. I will not debate the division of household chores, responsible adults need to figure out who washes clothes and who fixes cars on their own. At 16, my daughter was earning money doing brakes and tune-ups for her high school class. In our house I cook all of our meals and do the dishes
If a change is to be made -and it should be- that path will take several generations to accomplish, there is no 'magic bullet' or law that will change basic human interaction. As dismal as that sounds, change IS possible and the reality is that we, women & men must start now.
I am saying it will take generations because it is necessary to start the process before people become parents. It means rethinking the way we treat each other, parent our children, allow institutions (school, religion and friends) to become part of their lives. We were luckier than most - as my wife & I worked alternating day/night shifts someone was always with the children...many people will not have that choice.
In our own lives, we chose to teach kindness, humility and humanity to the children, 2 girls and 1 boy - who grew to be happy productive, kind and giving members of society. The oldest is retired from the food service industry, the middle child is in Forestry and the youngest is a college professor (PhD) who teaches Anthropology and Women's Studies.
It isn't easy, this is perhaps the most difficult thing any adult can do, it is also the most rewarding.
As a footnote, we had our youngest at home with the other two children present, they were 11 and 13 at the time. The best part of this for me was that I got to deliver my daughter!
I think one thing you (men) can do is calmly challenge the attitudes and behaviors of the men you know. If all men were inclined to listen to women sharing their experiences with the dismissive and violent ones we wouldn't be having this conversation.
It's really not different from pointing out racial and religious bigotry when you hear it. As for religious fanatics, I think it would be difficult to change their minds, but silence is tacit agreement.
It may seem strange to many that the men that I know do not harbor the negative feelings about women that are so often attributed to men in general. As stated before, the changes you are asking for will only manifest well with youngsters. Adult women and men are fairly set in their ways and very few of either side are able or willing to see the effects of their behavior or able to change.
Knowing of many (men) who show the characteristics you speak of - it would be unwise to even suggest a serious or even casual conversation of that nature. For those few - there is no such thing as a calm challenge. Violent and dismissive men will not be swayed by listening to you - I sincerely believe that the very challenge you are seeking will do way more harm than good!
It is up to the parents to change the dialogue and the behavior of their children. As for pointing out racial and religious bigotry, the context and venue are most valuable in the weight of your response. Would you march with BLM and teach your children about racial injustice? I saw Dr. King speak at The Lincoln Memorial more than 60 years ago. Are you willing to protest Southern Baptists who picket the funerals of gay people - to teach your children about religious bigotry? Would you go to HR if you were sexually harassed at work?
Silence is NOT tacit agreement - sometimes it is the only not to get fired, outcast or hit - think what that says to your children about your behavior!
I appreciate your support and thoughtful questions. I feel it would be helpful to ask these questions to your male friends and family as I believe we've carried the majority of the load of this work. I'd very much love to hear what answers you find, if you'd like to share.
My great aunt was in the First wave of Feminism, my sister was in the second and my daughter is in the third. My roommate (a very long time ago) was the Chicago VP of NOW...
It's good that feminists like you exist to explain men and boys to men and boys, feminists are INFINITELY better authorities over the lives and experiences of boys and men than boys and men are (who have no distinct or uniquely valid perspective). Men and boys absolutely need to sit down and shut up, as a man (former boy), I wish to thank you sincerely for explaining me to me; us males are just so inept at being human beings. Your son is so fortunate to have a mother who will not allow him to begin to develop the delusion of his own subjective validity! Honestly, one wonders why our moral superiors continue to permit the existence of males at all, we're obviously far more trouble than we're worth. And the fact that anyone who evaluates Trump as the better candidate for president over Kamala Harris are sexist and misogynistic is basically incontrovertibly true, I think Tulsi Gabbard has some seemingly decent arguments for her support of Trump but she clearly is suffering from internalized misogyny!
Oh, Lance, please fuck all the way off. You should probably pack a Fuck Off sandwich, too, because I think you’re going to be traveling a long time. Maybe along the way you can find a better hobby than trolling all the feminists on Substack.
Many of us agree with what you say and will stand with and by you 100% to fight against this behavior. No one should feel demeaned or threatened or exploited - tell us how you would change the story and stop the attitude that so many have. Explain what parents can do to teach girls and boys to act differently, and how to stop the most egregious lies being told by our politicians that warp the very fabric of our lives. What would you do about the religious zealots who do not allow discussions about birth control or gender roles...
These are great questions, John, and I do agree with Holle that they're also good questions to ask the men in your life. I wonder what men think about the Gisèle Pelicot case, for example. 72 men in the local area were happy to rape an unconscious woman while her husband filmed them. I can't wrap my head around that and I can't even hold onto the thought for too long because I start to panic. I feel men might talk to one another differently about that, but I don't know if that's true.
I am a big believer that mothers should be talking to their kids about sex, too, (at an age-appropriate time) whatever their genders. In my circle I have a lot of progressive, insightful, incredibly smart women who feel uncomfortable talking to their sons about sex, for example. I have been very open with my son, not that it's always been comfortable, but I felt it was really important that I, as a women, to talk to him about consent, about never having sex with anyone who is not sober even if they want to, about porn not being the place to look to figure out what girls and women need or want...I mean, I just laid it all out there and it's been great because the lines of communication have always been open. I've been the same way with my daughter, of course, but it seems like a lot of the moms in my circle leave the sex talk with their sons to their dads, and I think both perspectives are really important. This is not me trying to make more work for women, or laying the problem at our feet, this is just one piece of a large puzzle that seems to be missing, at least in this anecdotal way I'm describing. But all of this requires openness generally, and a willingness of parents to examine their own biases and fears. My heart breaks for kids who are queer growing up in a family that teaches homosexuality is a sin. I mean, we could dig in here for a long time, but my basic premise is openness, acceptance, communication and love, always. I know not every household is made that way.
I also think what happens in the home is huge, that chores should be evenly spread amongst the kids and should not have anything to do with gender. Certainly the most powerful stuff is always what we're doing, not what we're saying, so if there are two parents in the house, regardless of gender, is the relationship healthy, is there mutual respect and good communication? I also think honesty is everything. Making mistakes is fine, but knowing how to give a heartfelt apology is a skill so many adults don't possess. It's so good to work on that and model it. Anyway, I could go on for hours I think.
Religious leaders who won't talk about gender or sexuality...I dunno. That's not something I think we're going to fix, unless by fix we're talking about not attending their services. I would not follow anyone who preached intolerance, but that's me. And politicians, I mean we really will be here for days and weeks. We need to get money out of politics and we need to get rid of the electoral college. And we need a million other things. Anyway, that's a jumble of thoughts for you! Thanks so much for your comments and questions and I look forward to hearing what your thoughts are!
BRAVA - your answer is brilliant & worthy!
We, adults, have abdicated responsibility willingly because we are offered the easy choices. We give away parental authority to schools, churches and politicians because we believe they know better than we do. We teach our girls to become 'princesses' and our boys to become 'cavemen' because we believe that is what society and patriarchy demand...and every bit of this is wrong.
We teach intolerance because our 40,000 year old brain is stuck in an US vs.THEM cycle and the proof is not just black/white or women/men it manifests in the Middle East where Israelis and Palestinians are and have (in essence) the same genetic makeup and in Ireland where Protestant/Catholic can not be distinguished.
Learning starts in the home - with both parents being present and accountable. I will not debate the division of household chores, responsible adults need to figure out who washes clothes and who fixes cars on their own. At 16, my daughter was earning money doing brakes and tune-ups for her high school class. In our house I cook all of our meals and do the dishes
If a change is to be made -and it should be- that path will take several generations to accomplish, there is no 'magic bullet' or law that will change basic human interaction. As dismal as that sounds, change IS possible and the reality is that we, women & men must start now.
I am saying it will take generations because it is necessary to start the process before people become parents. It means rethinking the way we treat each other, parent our children, allow institutions (school, religion and friends) to become part of their lives. We were luckier than most - as my wife & I worked alternating day/night shifts someone was always with the children...many people will not have that choice.
In our own lives, we chose to teach kindness, humility and humanity to the children, 2 girls and 1 boy - who grew to be happy productive, kind and giving members of society. The oldest is retired from the food service industry, the middle child is in Forestry and the youngest is a college professor (PhD) who teaches Anthropology and Women's Studies.
It isn't easy, this is perhaps the most difficult thing any adult can do, it is also the most rewarding.
As a footnote, we had our youngest at home with the other two children present, they were 11 and 13 at the time. The best part of this for me was that I got to deliver my daughter!
I think one thing you (men) can do is calmly challenge the attitudes and behaviors of the men you know. If all men were inclined to listen to women sharing their experiences with the dismissive and violent ones we wouldn't be having this conversation.
It's really not different from pointing out racial and religious bigotry when you hear it. As for religious fanatics, I think it would be difficult to change their minds, but silence is tacit agreement.
It may seem strange to many that the men that I know do not harbor the negative feelings about women that are so often attributed to men in general. As stated before, the changes you are asking for will only manifest well with youngsters. Adult women and men are fairly set in their ways and very few of either side are able or willing to see the effects of their behavior or able to change.
Knowing of many (men) who show the characteristics you speak of - it would be unwise to even suggest a serious or even casual conversation of that nature. For those few - there is no such thing as a calm challenge. Violent and dismissive men will not be swayed by listening to you - I sincerely believe that the very challenge you are seeking will do way more harm than good!
It is up to the parents to change the dialogue and the behavior of their children. As for pointing out racial and religious bigotry, the context and venue are most valuable in the weight of your response. Would you march with BLM and teach your children about racial injustice? I saw Dr. King speak at The Lincoln Memorial more than 60 years ago. Are you willing to protest Southern Baptists who picket the funerals of gay people - to teach your children about religious bigotry? Would you go to HR if you were sexually harassed at work?
Silence is NOT tacit agreement - sometimes it is the only not to get fired, outcast or hit - think what that says to your children about your behavior!
I believe you misinterpreted my comment. I don't believe providing a resume of my social action activities will help.
I apologize for any misunderstanding.
No need
I appreciate your support and thoughtful questions. I feel it would be helpful to ask these questions to your male friends and family as I believe we've carried the majority of the load of this work. I'd very much love to hear what answers you find, if you'd like to share.
My great aunt was in the First wave of Feminism, my sister was in the second and my daughter is in the third. My roommate (a very long time ago) was the Chicago VP of NOW...
how much time do you have ?
It's good that feminists like you exist to explain men and boys to men and boys, feminists are INFINITELY better authorities over the lives and experiences of boys and men than boys and men are (who have no distinct or uniquely valid perspective). Men and boys absolutely need to sit down and shut up, as a man (former boy), I wish to thank you sincerely for explaining me to me; us males are just so inept at being human beings. Your son is so fortunate to have a mother who will not allow him to begin to develop the delusion of his own subjective validity! Honestly, one wonders why our moral superiors continue to permit the existence of males at all, we're obviously far more trouble than we're worth. And the fact that anyone who evaluates Trump as the better candidate for president over Kamala Harris are sexist and misogynistic is basically incontrovertibly true, I think Tulsi Gabbard has some seemingly decent arguments for her support of Trump but she clearly is suffering from internalized misogyny!
Oh, Lance, please fuck all the way off. You should probably pack a Fuck Off sandwich, too, because I think you’re going to be traveling a long time. Maybe along the way you can find a better hobby than trolling all the feminists on Substack.